Feature: Ella Sophie
OLD FASHIONED
ELLA SOPHIE
By Dave Lisik
Published November 2, 2024
Ella Sophie Dunbar-Wilcox is a vocalist and pianist currently completing a master’s degree in jazz performance at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles. She has just released an EP of six outstanding new vocal tracks featuring an instrumental trio of some of LA’s most outstanding jazz musicians: Josh Nelson, Alex Frank, and Ryan Shaw. Originally from Christchurch, New Zealand, Ella is rapidly becoming one of NZ's most capable jazz exports.
I had a conversation with Ella, via zoom, between our homes in New Zealand and Los Angeles.
Dave: There she is! Hey, Ella.
Ella: I’m here. How are you doing?
Dave: Really good. The stock market is up another one percent today so that’s always good news. Congratulations on the new tracks! I’ve had a chance to listen to them all several times now and you’ve done a great job with so many aspects of this recording. I think it’s particularly impressive that you’re still in the middle of your degree and have had the ability to get this done on this level. It’s the beginning of October so you’re really just getting started with the Fall semester?
Ella: Thanks! Yes, I’m right in the middle of school stuff at the moment. We’ re in week four or five, I think. But yeah, I’m really happy to have just released my first EP.
Dave: And then you've got one more semester at USC after this one?
Ella: Right. I’ll graduate in May.
Dave: I assume that seems really fast from your perspective? I remember having that one frantic summer in between master’s years, barely enough time to catch your breath, and feeling like it was all over so quickly.
Ella: It feels like it's both been a long time, but also just like a blink. It's strange.
Dave: We'll talk about what you're going to do afterwards in a minute, because I know everyone loves the questions about what you’re going to do with your life after this current stage is complete. But let’s talk about this great first project and what led you in all the directions that you took.
What was your musical home life like in Christchurch, New Zealand? I contend that good musicians typically musicians benefit from one of two upbringings: they either have musical influences at home, or close to home (musical parents or aunts and uncles), or they get what they need in some respects from the school system. I think, in your background, you've got a bit of both of those parts of the mix, right?
Ella: I do, that’s true. I was born and raised in Christchurch. My dad, Leonard Wilcox, is an American, former jazz drummer, and he would play jazz around the house a lot. That was kind of the music of my home environment. Jazz was a familiar sound to me and it became comfortable because it was just always on [the stereo]. There are videos of my dad dancing with me when I was about a year old, and even younger, to Ella Fitzgerald and Frank Sinatra. So, in terms of my development, he was a “jazz head” and that helped.
I think I consciously started putting on jazz records to listen to while I was playing with Lego or doing crafts or other kid things. I was about eight. I remember a certain Herbie Hancock album that I put on just because I wanted to listen to it. And then an Ella Fitzgerald album. It just became a regular thing. So there was something in me that, on my own terms, was attracted to the sound of jazz and, especially, vocal jazz.
Dave: You also were also doing some pretty impressive singing with a school big band when you were still really young.
Ella: In middle school, I started singing in jazz bands, mainly through being introduced to Judith Bell. She is still the music teacher at Chisnallwood Middle School and is one of the country’s strongest jazz teachers, especially for that age of student. I actually went to a different middle school, but was invited to sing with Judith’s Chisnallwood jazz band.
Dave: Where I’m from you can pretty much count on having a middle school jazz band to play in but, fifteen years ago, Judith’s jazz program was almost one of a kind in New Zealand so you being in Christchurch and having access to that was a bit of a random advantage for you.
Ella: And Judith wasn’t only the jazz teacher but she put a lot of emphasis on the jazz side of things and actually knew a lot about it. My dad would also take me to whatever jazz workshops might be happening in Christchurch. I think the first one was with Rodger Fox when I was eleven and that was where I first met Rodger.
Dave: And Chisnallwood wasn’t your actual middle school, correct?
Ella: Right. I didn’t go to Chisnallwood. The school I went to didn't have any jazz bands. It was very unique that a middle school had such a developed jazz program for eleven and twelve year olds. So it was even more unusual that they let me sing with their jazz bands when I was at a completely different school. And they let me compete with them.
Dave: Well, yeah. In a more strict environment for music competitions, they might have been disqualified from a jazz festival for having musicians from a different school, but certainly a great opportunity for you.
Ella: Yeah, it was a huge starting point I think for me because it allowed me a space to sing jazz, learn more about jazz, and also write my own songs. They played my original music in the bands, too. I was starting to get into writing at that age. And I liked the other kids in the program. And then I went to Burnside high school with its specialist music programme. And I was with like minded people, you know, who liked jazz.
All that I got to do and learn at Burnside High School, and then NZSM, was important for me to study in this program because USC really emphasizes not just being a good vocalist, but a good arranger, composer, band leader, and having skills and knowledge of other instruments, too. I did the New Zealand Youth Jazz Orchestra as a vocalist in 2015 and 2016, and then as a pianist in 2019. The guest artists were Scott Wendholt, Alex Sipiagin, and Francisco Torres so that was a huge opportunity to hear and play with people on that level.
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Dave: So, remind me, the other side of it? What was your dad's background? He’s American, right? And that’s how you have a United States passport? But you were born in New Zealand.
Ella: I was born in New Zealand, but we'd visit Dad's family in the States every few years.
Dave: Where is he from in the U.S. and how did he end up becoming a jazz musician?
Ella: My dad lived in Los Angeles and when he was a teenager he played in high school marching bands and then eventually jazz bands. Jazz drumming was a big part of his life. Later he moved to Christchurch to teach at University of Canterbury as an American Studies lecturer. Eventually he met my mum and then had me. But even in New Zealand, jazz was still a part of his life, playing in bands, while being a full time university lecturer. He also had his own jazz radio show for a while on Radio NZ. And, of course, he incorporated jazz history and listening into his American Studies courses. When I was young and we would listen to records together, he'd often talk about the history of jazz and American history with me. Like, “These are the players. These are their backgrounds. This is what was happening socially and culturally at the time.” It was fascinating for me and a pretty good education from the get-go, and it gave us a meaningful way to spend time together.
Dave: Did your parents actually name you after Ella Fitzgerald, or is that a coincidence?
Ella: People are always asking me that and I only really asked him about it recently and he said that was a big part of it. My mum and dad both wanted that connection.
Dave: You also play piano on a similar level to your singing and have “accompanied” yourself on the piano a fair amount already. Did you start studying piano before or after singing?
Ella: Hmm, I was going to say the piano came first but I first performed publicly, as a singer, when I was in kindergarten. I remember singing “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” to my kindergarten.
Dave: If parents sing with their kids at all, I guess singing comes before any other instrument, at least in an informal “kid” kind of way.
Ella: Yeah, true. I guess, in terms of formal lessons, piano was first. My parents got me into piano lessons at six or seven and then singing lessons at nine. After that I started singing and playing and writing songs where I'd accompany myself. I didn't start studying jazz piano until I was 17, my last year of high school. I did classical piano grades up until then.
Dave: Do you remember the first thing that you ever composed or a song that you wrote?
Ella: One of my early ones was a song called “Grey.” As a young kid I would write these sad songs. But I wasn't really sad. But this first song was called “Grey” and the lyrics were, “The sky is always grey, the wind is always cold.” It was just very sad. And I would play it and sing it. And I won a competition with a song called “Did you know that you broke my heart?”
Dave: You weren't sad, but you just knew that that was how you attracted attention, right? [laughs] That's the kind of music that people respond to. It had to be kind of tumultuous.
Ella: Yeah, yeah! And I don't know if you remember this song, but one of the first things I wrote when I was singing with Chisnallwood was called “You Just Won't Do.” And it had these really biting lyrics like: “Wipe that smile off your dial, because you bore me, you tire me, you're not my style.”
Dave: That’s funny. So you were like an eleven year old kid writing rejection and breakup songs.
Ella: Yeah, it was a rejection song!
Dave: I remember that because we started the university educational jazz festival in 2011 and you came to the first one. Chisnallwood was the only middle school band in the festival and we had created awards for the different instruments and top bands but none of them were designated for bands that young.
Ella I think you all created a new award called “adjudicators commendation,” as an acknowledgement being promising or whatever.
Dave: And that was for you?
Ella: That was for me, yeah.
Dave: I remember the performance because you were about this tall and you looked like you were about six.
Ella: Right, yeah. Oh, my God.
Dave: So you were on the radar of people several levels above you, at least in age, right off the bat. And was the school you went to pretty far away from Chisnallwood?
Ella: Yes, it was on the other side of town. My dad would drive me to Chisnallwood every Friday for rehearsals. It was about a half hour drive. I was allowed to go early from my real school on those days. And I remember those trips because this was during the time Christchurch was badly hit by a series of earthquakes and there were piles of silt … and the destruction on that side of town was much worse.
Dave: Then, for high school, how far away was Burnside from where you lived? Was that a choice you had to make to go to that school?
Ella: It was actually close.
Dave: Okay, so going there didn't involve some complicated transfer process or anything like that? That's just where you were supposed to go?
Ella: Right.
Dave: I remember understanding that from the beginning, that Burnside and Chisnallwood really weren't in the same catchment, which was unfortunate because, if they had been, that connection would have even been more solid. So there really was no difficult choice to make about where to go to high school.
Ella: No. Partly because it was close, but the bigger reason being the quality of its music program. My parents had already heard about this specialist music program they had at Burnside. I auditioned for that and got into the vocal program. And also because of the specialty in jazz. Chris Petch was directing the big band and it was one of the best in New Zealand. For my musical development, Judith Bell and Chris Petch were really two of my most important teachers when I was in school.
Dave: For sure.
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Dave: What were your most important musical experiences during your high school years?
Ella: I think probably going to the jazz festival in Wellington was important. Our bands went most years, with either a combo or big band, and getting to watch the performances by the guest artists. And where the university jazz festival was at the same time as the Wellington Jazz Festival, to get to see those people as well. It was inspiring to see that international level, but also to compete in the festival. That was all informative and very important.
And all the variety that the Burnside music program provided. It did let me specialize in jazz but it also encouraged the students to become well rounded and versatile. The choirs sang different genres of music in the specialist music program: classical music and musical theatre. I was pretty stubborn about just wanting to do jazz all the time. My teachers kind of had to be like, “No, you also need to focus on these other areas.”
Dave: As a master's student, more than halfway through your program at a really good school, how has your perspective changed on that? Do you think that diversity helped get you where you are at the moment? One of the things I’ve talked about a lot was the fact that you can get an undergraduate degree in jazz in New Zealand and not only not take a single non-music class, but not really take a single non-jazz class, which I think is ridiculous and ultimately detrimental to the vast majority of students.
But now, you’re putting out this new project. And there obviously there's no category for your new album other than straight ahead jazz. I’m sure you have other interests but, presumably, jazz is one area you see as a big part of a career. How much of your non-jazz study has made your jazz performances better?
Ella: I think it has been essential, yeah. Although I think a lot has gone unnoticed. I probably don't realize how it’s influenced my music. I think doing classical theory has been really useful. I had to take a graduate entrance exam and it was all classical theory based, classical oral skills, and I hadn't learned any of that in my undergrad. So I crammed the exams. It was really interesting and helped me a lot, I think. Just my ear. And I'd done classical piano, too. That really helps. And also I did some non-music papers as an undergraduate.
Dave: Sure, the entrance tests and comprehensive exams are one thing. I put together that handout, almost fifteen years ago, about going to graduate school overseas. And a big part of it was, you're going to have to take these entrance exams in a subject that you essentially haven't studied at all.
One of the things that impresses me about you and your new recording is that you skipped the whole thing where you said, “I'm just going to use my classmates as my band.” Because that's pretty common, right? And at good schools, there are a lot of quality students to perform and record with.
Ella: Yeah, for my recitals at school, I've been singing with classmates, who are incredible. They're all really high level. I guess part of this is tied to how this project started. When I was talking with one of my professors about how to go about planning this recording, he suggested these musicians. And his message was, “For outside of school projects, aim higher in terms of your level. Play with people who are more experienced than you and you’ll learn many different things.” I'm certainly still learning many things from a lot of my classmates but this is as much about experience and wisdom as it is about what they’re playing.
Dave: Who is the person that suggested you go that route?
Ella: Jason Goldman. And I had wanted to do this project after I graduated. That was my previous goal: in the years after graduating, I would record and release music. But I was talking to him about it, and he said, “Why can't you do it now? Why can't you release it before the end of 2024?” And I was like, “No, that's too soon.” But then we talked about a timeline. He recommended some musicians who matched the sound I was going for, this very straight ahead sound. And even though all of these are versatile and play radically different styles, they were still perfect for these tunes in this style.
Dave: So many great players are like that these days, right? Almost nobody these days grew up just hearing and playing straight ahead jazz standards and many have very different music of their own. And I think that was great advice because, hopefully, finishing this project earlier than you thought you might has given you a new level of confidence for whatever comes next.
Luis Bonilla was really helpful to me in that area, too. And getting started thinking a little above where you might have been at the time has been helpful ever since.
Ella: I feel very lucky that they said yes and agreed to help me with the project. It definitely was a great learning experience just working with them. It felt like they were being real mentors, so that was cool.
Dave: I think there’s no question that your musicality is ready to start working with good people. Some people have no business playing with musicians who are that good. They haven't done the work themselves and it’s disrespectful to the music.
There’s a balance there that you need to be aware of. Be ambitious, but stay in your lane to an appropriate degree. My take on it is that you did it right. You found high quality players who have a lot more experience. But they’re not so much better than you that it's going to be embarrassing. It can be hard to get that balance because you do need to get out of your lane to grow and to get better. You need to be playing with people who are better than you to push you, but as you say, you also don't want to be jumping off the deep end.
When you have a unique role in the ensemble, like the vocalist, any trio is going to make you sound good if they’re empathetic musicians. And there are also a lot of really good jazz vocalists who don't have your ability on the piano or as a composer, or even have your theoretical knowledge of what's going on.
Ella: Right. I guess it plays into what you were talking about before: having invested time into different facets of yourself musically. All the work on piano, the lessons I had in classical and jazz piano, and then jazz and classical theory, all these different elements helped. And composing and arranging makes you a more rounded musician.
Dave: So these players in your band came by recommendation, but did you know who they were beforehand?
Ella: I knew one of them, a little bit, but I hadn't heard the two others.
Dave: So, once you became familiar with the musicians, you obviously worked through a rehearsal process? And you did the recording at Tally [Sherwood’s] studio?
Ella: I emailed the band to ask them to be involved. I sent videos of myself and to show them what my style was about, and then they agreed. We had one rehearsal and then an eight hour day of recording at Tritone with Tally. They were all so nice to work with.
Dave: What does each one of those players bring to that mix that you find impressive, at the time, or in retrospect?
Ella: First, it’s the sense of time and ability to lock into each other so well. I think this comes with a lot of experience, their kind of commitment to the musical idea, like how they could turn anything into an inspiring moment. They could improve something that maybe wasn't going well on my end, or something that wasn't very clear. They could take almost any idea, run with it, and fix it, you know? Like when Herbie [Hancock] talks about Miles [Davis] and Herbie says Miles made his mistakes sound good.
They're just so constantly present. I think that while I've been learning and studying, I can get stuck on a moment that doesn't feel great musically and not always know how to move forward from it in a quality way.
Dave: So it was just cool to see that being modeled effectively and giving you something to shoot for in your own performances.
Ella: Yeah, being musically present and capable. Their musical ideas, vocabulary, their soloing, their interaction with each other, it was all at such a high level. There were definitely moments in the rehearsals where I would listen, be like, “Whoa.”
Dave: “Oh, shit. I was supposed to come in there! I was so mesmerized, I missed my entrance.”
Ella: Yeah, “I forgot!”
Dave: You obviously have some very valuable perspective to share as a pianist and vocalist and understanding how important the relationship is between those elements of jazz. And for this recording, you have an outstanding band/rhythm section that includes a great pianist, and this project focuses on you as a vocalist. With that insight, say a couple things about the piano player.
Ella: His name is Josh Nelson. He played with Natalie Cole, so even that knowledge was just crazy to me. I'm having piano lessons with him at the moment. He’s such a kind soul as well as an amazing musician, I think. He has a real lyrical aspect to his playing, obviously melodic, but with exceptional clarity in his musical ideas. Melodies, rather than just licks, and he’s not playing to impress players. He’s playing to tell and develop a story and create a clear shape.
I just love the colors he uses on the piano. His voicings and just everything about his playing, is great. He does a lot of modern jazz playing and composing, so I think that comes into how he plays very straight ahead stuff. He has this sense of freedom within the form.
Dave: Almost any really good jazz piano player today, or probably for the longest time, has learned to play effectively with a vocalist. But then there are some who specialize in that and take it a different level. That must be especially fascinating for you, as a vocalist who also plays piano well and has accompanied herself, to work with and observe people like that.
Ella: Yeah, right. Well, that's another thing that he is so good at: playing with vocalists. It's so supportive but also feeds you so much new information that you can play off of. He listens so intently to what you're doing and complements it so well.
Dave: It could seem like a bit of a masterclass, where you’re being shown perfect items to be incorporated into your own concept. But at the same time you have to be dealing with your own role as the singer in the group. And what does Josh do for your comfort level while you're singing? Is there an added level of security there?
Ella: Yeah, I think so. Harmonically, definitely, but he also gives you enough space to do your own thing. But then he supports whatever choice you make and elevates it.
Dave: Okay, how about the bass player, Alex Frank? Anything specific about him other than the obvious ability?
Ella: He just has the most solid sense of time. The kind of the perfect combination of comfort while driving forward. You feel so certain in his quarter notes and his sound is so grounded in the tradition of all the great bass players. His solos are like singing melodies, very engaging to listen to. And he just helps my time. His pocket is so strong, it makes me have a better sense of time.
The same goes for Ryan Shaw on drums. Having worked with vocalists like Michael Bublé, Ryan knows how to back vocalists. In “The Best Thing for You Is Me” it’s just Ryan and me, voice and drums, on the head. I felt completely supported. It was more like a conversation between the two of us, because his comping is so attentive to my phrasing. In rehearsal he’d discuss songs with me and ask how I wanted him to approach them. I really appreciate his attention to detail. Of course, all of them just have the right combination of traits to be great musicians and work perfectly together in a trio.
Dave: What was the thought process that led you to choose some pretty traditional, stylistic tunes? I mean, one of the tunes is, “I'm Old Fashioned.”
Ella: Right.
Dave: Clearly that's not the only era or style of jazz that you're interested in ever performing, but it seems to me that there's a sort of mature thought process. “I'm going to document my ability to do justice to this style. For a twenty-five year old, you'd imagine that a lot of people making their first record would be like, “I'm gonna make a record with some crazy time changes and some weird harmonic language, and some free stuff. I'm going to declare to the world that I'm the hippest shit around.”
Ella: Right.
Dave: And you sort of did the opposite, which is, “I'm going to take a pretty conservative choice stylistically. These are going to be the parameters that I'm going to operate in, but I'm going to do a great freaking job at it. I'm going to get great players and I'm going to do my job within that environment as high a level as I can possibly muster.”” Is that an accurate assessment of the way you were thinking?
Ella: It is. That was some advice Jason Goldman gave me, too. When I was talking to him about what I wanted this record to be, I said that I loved, you know, the American songbook and that it had been a big part of my life so far. I felt like there was some pressure, and honestly, I’m not sure I can say from where, that maybe I should be putting out something more modern. And because I also arrange some things in a more modern style, too. But he advised me to go with what I felt my strengths were in that moment, but just make it as good as I possibly could.
I do feel like it's kind of a celebration of the music that's really fueled me throughout my life, but also with a bit of my own spin on the tunes. It’s documenting where I felt I was musically at this point.
Dave: I guess there are two questions, really: around the music that you want to make and the geography. What are we going to do musically and, I guess geographically; what are your plans after you're finished with school? I had several conversations with Hamish [Smith] about the trials and tribulations of not being an American and trying to study and then stay in America and qualify for his “O” visa. And, of course, that's something you're not going to have to deal with. If you decide to stay, you're just cool because you've got the passport. It's pretty advantageous.
Ella: Yeah. I do have the option to stay. It depends, like, what jobs I can get. Location wise, I haven't decided anything yet. Career wise, I'd love to find a balance of teaching, performing, and recording and releasing more music. And I'm not sure where that will be in the world. I do love it in California, but also love New Zealand. I think the USC program has helped me put an emphasis on the business side of music and viewing myself as a businessperson for my art, while still preserving the integrity of the art. I feel that a lot of the things that I'm learning at school are helping me to challenge my own perceived limitations of myself as an artist. Meanwhile, I have an exciting composition project in mind, and I’m also considering the possibility of doing a DMA.
Dave: You can't probably can't put yourself in my shoes where I see these young jazz people, who you knew as little kids, get a real shot at going to a top jazz school and deciding for themselves how far they want to try and take their careers. You're doing your thing and you're doing it at a level that is so satisfying to see. Whatever happens after this point, you’ve got a real foundation of skills and formal education to open up a ton of opportunities.
Ella: Yeah, we’ll see what comes along after I graduate. I want to apply for teaching jobs at universities, but I know that you pretty much need a DMA.
Dave: He just recently retired but, for a long time, every time Indiana University posted a new jazz job, Pat Harbison would make sure to point out that a master’s degree was required but the professional experience of the candidates was more important than the doctorate, and those without it would be considered very seriously. That won't be true at every place, but with the ability you’ve got, there’s no reason that you won’t be able to finish your doctorate at some very respectable schools for free. Now that you’ve got a good collection of tracks, videos, and compositions, and you can audition well, you’re going to be an attractive candidate almost anywhere.
Ella: That's certainly something I’ve been thinking about but I wasn't sure if I wanted to do three more years of study. But I also thought it would be great to have a doctorate finished.
Dave: The three years will pass anyway. How valuable or enjoyable that experience is really depends on where you are and what you choose to study. For me, it was more about getting better than having the piece of paper. So, I did the two years of coursework and took courses that I enjoyed being in. I was learning shit. I was getting better, taking a lot of private lessons. And at the time, if they were optional, I wouldn’t have done the comprehensive exams, oral comprehensives, and a number of other requirements, but now I’m happy to have gone through that process. And my dissertation was to write music and write about it. That's what I wanted to do anyway. And it was free, and they were giving me a stipend so I could pay my rent and my groceries and still have some left over. And I was playing a ton of gigs so it worked out alright.
I had friends who were musicologist doctoral students and getting closer to the end of the coursework and thinking, “I’ve got to pick a dissertation topic now, and I’ve got to pick something nobody's done.” So some of the topics were pretty obscure and not necessarily what they were super interested in studying for the number of years it was going to take. Some of that work means living in Europe and spending months in a library. Even some of the composers were stuck in large scale projects that they had a hard time being excited about.
But if you do it in voice, or piano, or composition, and probably all of those to some degree, and you're taking lessons with great people – you'll never be at the point where you don't want to take lessons with good people, even when you’re old – it can always be interesting for you. You’re in the middle of studying but, “I’m going to do a recital every semester and record that, and I'm going to go into the studio every couple of months, it can be the best time of your life.
Ella: Yeah, true.
Dave: Just don't choose to make it awful because of the subject matter. And every one of those things that you choose will make you more attractive to the jobs that you're going to apply for. Write something that's going to be attractive. Write your own music, make your own recordings. That is what you want to do anyway. And do it with killer people. So you're already doing that. You've already ticked that box. Now you could do a series of recordings with the same quartet and see how you change over a few projects. Or maybe you want to make a New York recording. You said you only had one rehearsal with the LA guys. There's no reason you can't do the same thing in New York with a completely different rhythm section and maybe a horn player, right?
I assume you knew about Talley [Sherwood]’s studio because Rodger [Fox] knew him? Bob Sheppard would be a great guy to use on a vocalist recording and he knows Talley well. And, like we were saying, you have this recording and you and Bob knew Rodger so you are in a good position to be able to call someone on that level. And you've got Vince Mendoza at USC.
Ella: Yeah, I definitely need to think about it.
Dave: And the next thing you know, you'll have half a dozen projects on your resume. And you'll look pretty good compared to almost anybody. You don't have to have it all figured out, but, just contemplating, “Well, I could do this, I could do that.” That's exciting. And excitement and forward thinking is what propels you.
Brilliant. Congratulations on such a good first recording project. I’ll be excited for whatever you put together for your next one. And good luck with the remainder of your degree!
